Hi all

I have attended a few karate classes lately with Senseis, David, susan and Matt where we have practiced some self defence. I personaly find that learning self defence consolidates the use of my karate techniques, does anybody else find this. It also makes sparring problematic for me because when i am sparring big guys, yes i mean like you Sensei David, i find i want to use self defense because i dont have a hope in hell at getting a strike in or getting away .

Connie

Hi Connie

There is a truckload of self defence applications in kata.

I find that by teaching those applications to students they can both visualise the kata and learn practical self-defence at the same time.

Apart from that, doing self defence stuff is always fun. And if you can't get the hang of something fairly quickly, leave it and move on. It is easier to employ a technique at need if it comes more naturally than if you have to think about it, cos by then it's probably too late.


Mick

This brings up the point of "how realistic is sparring?"

The truth is in a self defence situation it isnt very realistic at all. Oh if you can get a good swift kick in before anything starts then it may well be all over - but what if it goes to ground fighting? What preparation does sparring have for that? GKR sparring is very different from the "freestyle" form, where more "elaborate" techniques (jumping kicks, spinning back kicks etc etc) can be employed. come and watch the next NAS tournament on may 11 and see just how different it gets! I guess the trick is to be able to switch from one mind-set to another as the situation arises. Our sparring has rules, self defence doesnt.

I also get frustrated with sensei davids "grabby" style of sparring.....however Ive just used it to inspire me to get better and avoid his grabs! Being a tall chap his legs are a definate advantage, so I try to get as close as possible to negate the effect. I find myself getting better each time as I learn to counter his tricks......(next time mate - you are MINE!!! )
Learn from every time you get hit...ask "what did he do then that got through my guard"...make a note of it and what YOU were doing, and come up with a counter. try it again a few minutes later and soon something will click. Above all dont underestimate yourself...

go get 'em!

(ps - new record set for most uses of "quote marks" in a post )

Well, well, well!

I think I hear my concept of a "Karate Diamond" echoing in my ears! Anyone reading the chatgroup "explore.gkrkarate.com" will know what I mean - and thanks for reinforcing my ideas! :thumbwink:

Kata and Kumite alone will not teach you combative techniques - it takes application and practise to do that successfully.

Craig.

One possibility is to attack as soon as you are grabbed in sparring. Especially if there is any lag between the grab and the following attack.


Mick

Can you elaborate this concept for me Craig?

Matt i go to every NAS tournament and i have never seen jumping kick, and gkr usually win because we do straight techniques.
IMO gkr should teach some ground work if we are trully to teach our students how to defend themsekves.

by "jumping" I refer to a kick performed whilst the other foot was off the ground, as opposed to say a flying kick, which can be downright dangerous, and is but one of many techniques we do not practice. The point is (and I think you agree with me) parents send their kids to our classes having obtained the information by a "self defence consultant" and genuinely want their kids to be able to defend themselves. Is this possible given the short list of GKR approved defence techniques (which of course we all stick to )? Does sparring equip them for that? does teaching self defence mess up sparring? - it certainly seems to have caused Connie a few problems.

[edit] I'm certainly not trying to suggest that I know better than the club and my instructors..... just trying to stimulate debate here

Yeah i do agree, i believe that training in self defense is a good thing but the techniques taught are not that relevant, eg double lapel grab, why brake the hold they can't punch you so why give them the oppurtunity, we teach break the hold then hit.

a good debate is always fun

There is of course the alternate of not breaking the hold if not necessary. Why free up their hands if you don't need to?

I think that's what you are saying Omega. Like in the opening of saifa (my pet topic at the moment). We teach mainly that the application is to break the hold then backfist them. There are other alternatives like taking the restraining hand and reversing it, putting the attacker into a joint lock or taking them down.



Mick

Yeah i was saying exactly that but continuing the theory of using more words than neccasry to explain something.

I do like the idea of reversing a grab though, however the first thing that jumps into my mind is, isn't that also reversing the problem of tyimg up the hands, my favourite syaing at te moment is, "if in doubt break it"
seems to be effective in kata application.

I don't think by reversing the grab you have the same problem of tying up the hands if you implement a joint lock or something, to render the other incapable of continuing the attack.

Besides, if you reverse it and take control away from them it doesn't have to be more than momentary while you take the initiative away from them.


Mick

interesting theory, i'll have to do some more research on the subject.

For MatB,

The latest Shimbun talked about a Karate Triangle - I believe that the Karate Triangle does not show the practitioner that there is a goal to our training. It simply shows that you start training in Kihon, progress through Kata to Kumite and start all over again. After some mastery, the three topics inter-relate in the Karate Triangle, but don't serve to achieve a goal.

If you picture a diamond (or a matrix), and external to the Karate Triangle are your goals, you get to correlate what your training means and why you're doing it.

I think I mystified some people on the other chatgroup, but I firmly believe that Kihon, Kata and Kumite can't adequately answer all the questions in the World about Karate and self-defense on their own. In reality, the goals will change for different people (as stated by someone else - Zubs!) - for me the goals of a Martial Art should be combative technical application of what you've learnt; be it self-defense, assassination (Ninjas , special forces), outright attack (Samurai, infantry) etc. For us, it's self-defense, so I stated that the Karate Diamond was the Karate Triangle with an extra bit added to the bottom of the triangle to form a diamond and related all the elements of Karate to our goal of self-defense.

The inter-relation contained two-way arrows to indicate feedback between all the elements, hence preventing the need to continuously cycle through a training regime - any improvement in one element would surely improve the others. Hence the idea of a diamond, matrix, whatever shape it takes!

However you wish to picture it, I don't mind one bit; but I don't see the triangle as the whole story.

My idea is still a work in progress in my mind, and hence, I enjoy the scurtiny of the idea and its value. If it does nothing else other than make people think a bit harder about why they train, then that is enough for me - otherwise, we're just drones!

CraigL.

i kind of understood this from your other explanation on the msn forum, but this new way of explaining it is far more helpful and easy to follow

i agree with the diamond theory and can picture the idea in my head now

and although you dont really believe it yourself each area improves with the help of the others

S. Grant asked me how i felt about my training recently where i gave him an answer consisting of kata being my most developed and the area im most happy with and kumite being the area i need to work on the most.
he then asked me about my basics. i said i wasnt happy with those either - his response to that was "Your Kata wouldnt be good if your basics werent good aswell" and "with good basics and kata your kumite skills will begin to build up rapidly"

so there you have it
you may feel like you're not doing well when in actual fact you really are.

Speaking about goal, My only reason doing karateis to be more discipline with my life. I was looking for the right martial art for me to be committed and achieve my goal, and it was answered when someone knocked on my door :thumbwink:

I never really see I'm going to use karate in real life because I pretty much always try to avoid places or situations where there're possibilities for me to use karate. I'm only yellow belt now, but I believe as I progress in karate also as I get more mature, my vision about karate as self defence may fade and I will see karate more as a progress for my body and spirit.

I've been always interested in Aikido since I was a kid but never had chance to do it because the place where I grew up is not popular with the martial arts. But I keep praying one day I will do one

I feel the same MYSRH.

I always follow the rules of going out (the girls rules anyway).
I NEVER go anywhere alone.
I ALWAYS take my mobile phone with me.
And I ALWAYS stick to busy, well populated and well lit areas.

I'm only an orange belt at the moment so I don't really have a good grip on the art yet. But when I do know a little more I definately hope I will NEVER need to find out if it really works.

Just my 2 cents.

Just incidentally I recently learned a different way to escape from a bearhug. It is remarkably reminiscent of the opening sequence in kanku dai.


Mick

(Bearhug)

... or the seventh-eleventh move of Hangetsu.

... or the "upward elbow block" moves of Seiunchin.

... or the ninth-tenth move of Sepai.

... or the "stretched-out arm" move of Kururunfa.

:thumbgrin: CraigL

That may be so CraigL, but I am talking about one method in particular which worked when a 120kg bloke was holding me.

There seem to be a lot of ways of using the opening sequence of kanku dai.

I also just realised the similarity between one of the takedowns I was shown and the kick-punch sequences of our 2nd kata.


Mick