Hi All,

This question is mainly aimed at forum administrators and site holders and was spawned as an off topic reply to Mick's Mountain thread.

Background:

GKR has 'methods' for teaching karate to over 40,000 students in Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom and now America. Most of us are well aware of these methods and this is not the topic for this thread.

As Mick pointed out, due to the advent of the information super highway and the ever increasing number of people that have become 'connected'; we have seen a burst of activity in the area of internet fourms. I have encountered 4 GKR titled internet discussion forum (would that be fora?). Two of which seem to be pro GKR and 2 have a healthy balance.

Forum such as these have the potential to speed up communication between geographically displaced GKR dojo - I see this as a good thing. When individuals are empowered with knowledge they can make better judgements. Shortfalls which exist in the GKR system will only ever be changed when the membership threatens to vote with its feet. GKR will be alarmed by such a movement, but they would be wise to listen and accept that some changes to policy would benefit them.

I could go on at length with more reasoning, but I am sure I would bore the readers!!

The Question:

What is the audience?

How many actice members does this forum and others have? Of those members, how many still train with GKR? Considering just the GKR forum members, how many dojo are represented?

These figures would give an indication as to the likely ditribution of thoughts, and hence communication between dojo.

On top of the member base, how many hits are made to the sites by non-registered guests reading the forums; is there any data collection regarding repeat visitors?


The question that matters:

I would suspect the number to be high, but is it significant in respect to the approximate 40,000 GKR membership (would that be around 1500 dojo?)?

Atb

David

All the dojos are listed in the back of shimbun.

And again, GKR doesnt actually have 40,000+ actively training members. Like most clubs, this figures represents attendance (in this case weekly). It has an unknown amount of ppl training roughly 40k times a week. (the last official figures for attendance i heard of were 43,315, 25k being in the UK).

This site seems to have 395 registered members (some with 0 posts) dont know if there is a statistics page here?....

UK board seems to have 693 members, again not all are posters (I seem to have 10% of all posts there...:S)

Aussie board seems to have about 650 members too. Again couldnt find a stats page.

Of course thse figures are real vague because some of those ppl no longer view the site etc and there is cross pollenation (SP?) of members..

My head hurts now.

I suspect there would be quite a number of people who read without registering. The number of registered users could be increased by requiring registration to read, but all that would mean is that:

1. Probably fewer people would read, being put off by having to register; and
2. There would be a larger number of registered lurkers instead of having unregistered lurkers.

Some people are genuinely keen on karate (not saying that others aren't, bear with me a bit longer) and seek out fora (note correct plural form of forum) for extra knowledge.

Some people are keen on training and seek out fora to discuss their training online with like-minded people.

Some people think their instructor's words are akin to those of Almighty Bob (gratuitous Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference) and seek out fora to spread that word.

There is also the occasional sod who, becoming disillusioned with the system they have been training with, and do not like feeling they've been made a fool or taken advantage of, seek out fora to spew forth hatred and anger against all and sundry who even appear in some way remotely connected to the object of their objection.

Back to the question: On average I estimate there is perhaps one user per couple of dojo, including families as a single user etc. With there being clusters of members sharing a geographic area then there are probably entire regions unrepresented. Time to go pimping the forum!


Mick

Rancer,

Hmm, 40k or not...doesn't really matter - point being there are a lot and its those that need to be targeted.

You have maybe hit the snag, around 1700 registered; many of whom may be inactive. Many, like ourselves, are promiscuous, of the a remainder a proportion will not have current connections with GKR....

...so what's left? and is it significant??

Atb

David

Mick,

Just missed you post. I think the lurkers are perhaps the greatest number, and although possible to estimate the numbers based on IP addresses - quite impossible to assess if they are currently training with GKR or not

Atb

David

Oww! My head.....

All GKR classes have names written down for attendance, right?

Canberra is a smallish region, but even so, I just counted 45 different classes offered during the week.

Surely some person with no life could go through and collate names with numbers, and work out the percentages of people training once, twice, etc.
If it was done region by region, the task wouldn't be too big.

Goyle, what do you think RM's are for?

Thats actually a big part of their job. Daily reports sent to ZD about SDC performance and weekly reports on SDC performance and ACA (average class attendance).

When ACA hits 16 they can open a new dojo. So the info is already collected....but getting at it would probably be like trying to prise a loose coin from a destitute RM's deathgrip.

David, it doesnt matter your right, but come on...you have to leave me something to snipe at!

Interesting questions
I dumped all my stats data to clear space about 3 months ago unfortunately, but heres a monthly average of April, May and June thus far:

Unique IP's - 190. A guide to the number of individual visitors monthly.
Posts per month 847 - Been a busy few months!
Unfortunately the stats don't say whether they train GKR or not , but this implies there are a hellova lot of lurkers there . Jump on in guys!

Countries:
About 60% of visits are from Australia, next biggest UK, then US and New Zealand followed by 5 or less per month from, Singapore, Lithuania, Greece, the Netherlands, Belgium, Finland and Norway (I have a fair idea who that one is however)! Some of the foreign language visits come from references on other sites I cant read or trace back what they say - might be interesting to know whos saying what about GKR where. I'll see what I can find out.

Oh - for the paranoid amongst us note that theres nothing other than IP used to get this info and nothing is actually matched up specifically with your IP other than the fact that you visited, where you came from, and that you posted (IP's are linked to individual posts). This is probably a lot less data than most sites you visit collect, and I dump stats periodically anyway.. Im really not that interested in keeping tabs on you sorry

Thanks Matt, most interesting stats

So this tells us we have just under 200 individuals visiting the forum each month - would I be right in saying the vast majority (over 70% - possibly higher?) of these are non registered users having a shufty?

It is probably reasonable to assume that a good number of these visitors (don't want to call them lurkers, as this implies they are doing something wrong ) are repeat visitors; probably GKR full timers keeping tabs on opinion? - If this is the case, then that is excellent news Another significant proportion of visitors could be GKR students who are curious about what they have joined, are having a look, but do not feel they have anything to contribute. This again is a good thing.

There will however be a significant chunk who visit the site either by accident or just surfing and who have no real interest whatsoever in GKR or karate. - I guess these individuals would not return?

So I guess the real stats that are of merit are how many unique IPs have revisited? Bit of a daft question really in as much as if they have revisited then they are not unique!! - But a monthly cut off as Matt applied to his earlier stats would be appropriate.

How do these proportions compare to the other fora (see Mick, I can learn )? Come on guys, I know you visit....lets have your views!!:)

Atb

David

The GKR higher ups do read the forums.

I should imagine they sit and have a good giggle.

I hope they might take some of what we waffle on about seriously!

Well, if they have all the data, then I dont see why the actual number of individuals that train can't be calculated.
Maybe it's just not publicised.



Like the need for certain bunkai taught in class?

"look, it's a sea shell"

Would it be worth teaching application when the system would require that what is taught must be the lowest common denominator? There are enough instructors around in other clubs who should not be allowed to do things like chokes and vital point striking (assertion based on opinion without supporting evidence) without opening such things up to instructors in the GKR system (assertion based on experience).

Given that there are also some controls and restraints which are only this much *holds up finger and thumb* between "Ouch" and "Aaargh that snapping noise wasn't normal", would you want to be on the receiving end?


Mick

You raise a very good point Mick. Before attempting to teach any decent, practical bunkai the instructors would need to significantly increase their own skill set (never mind the safety considerations). This would take several years. Perhaps it is better that GKR simply skirts the whole issue.

Mike

mike

a pretty arrogant statement there....

JC

Hi JC

Not arrogant, no. Just based on what is commonly taught in GKR. You may rightly point out examples of individual dojos that train with greater breadth and depth, but these are the exception rather than the norm. The writings of GKR students in both Aus and the UK clearly indicate that.

Hell, I even know an ex-GKR student (on this forum I think) who was told by his RM that joint-locking and throwing aren't in kata and aren't part of karate, and anybody who said otherwise was making it up. If that's what RM's espouse its no wonder the rank and file have limited skill-sets.

Personally I'd hate to be in a class with a low kyu grade 'sensei' teaching joint-locks and throws - might as well just pre-book a few ambulances at the start of the session. No, far better to stick to the non-contact striking techniques.

Mike

There are some very improtant points here, but we are getting of track just a little.

I doubt anybody would argue that GKR is perfect and thus would not benefit from evolution - deliberately not being specific.

The point is, for a change to be made it needs merit. I would argue that such merit needs qulaification from those that matter - the membership. If the GKR karateka are happy with a technique or policy, then there is no reason to change it. If however, the converse can be demonstrated, then there is selective pressure for change.

For this to occur significant communication is required, by that I mean communication that reaches a significant proportion of the GKR active karateka. Furthermore, any such comunication has to be unbiased - ie peer reviewed; in this instance the peerage would be the martial arts community.

The essence of this thread is aimed at determining how effective these internet forums have become at disseminating information throughout GKR; by a GKR-independent means.

A specific unbiased well represented discussion of each technique applied in GKR karate would undoubtedly be of great merit, but that is not the point of this particular thread.

I am beginning to waffle - a specific question for all; how could the effectivness of an internet forum be evaluated at the GKR dojo level?

Atb

David

David, my apologies for going off at a tanget, although I did think Mick made an extremely good point.



Is it actually possible to quantify something like this? I suspect not. But I'm sure it can be qualified to a degree. How? In the same way that it would occur in any martial art club. Those who participate in fora are exposed to a wide variety of different opinions, some expert some less so. But of course, even the experts don't always agree with each other. Fora generally have great breadth of knowledge and experience, and occasionally great depth too. It can only be a good thing that we are exposed to the insights of others. Inevitably this exposure will influence some students to question what they do and what their instructors teach them. They may be lucky enough to have a teacher who welcomes such questioning or they may not. Eventually some students will either get the answers they're looking or they'll vote with their feet and go somewhere else in search of those answers.

But the important thing is that students question, anything that promotes that is a good thing in my view.

Mike

I think that these forums would be an extremely good way of gauging the general feelings of the membership of GKR and many of the threads on this forum are focussed on the Karate, both in terms of constructive criticism and on how to do things differently / better.

To disseminate information directly into the Dojo is a little trickier because it is possible if a Sensei is reading the forum and can incorporate the ideas into his / her class. This could then be developed through discussion at Senior Class and passed onto other Sensei in the region.

It gets more difficult if a higher grade Karateka takes an idea from this board and tries to pass it onto a Sensei who could: -

dismiss it if they are a lower grade and don't understand it
Dismiss it if they only teach the GKR class plan
Dismiss it if they don't want to be challenged by a student
Dismiss it if they are a higher grade than the student and do not think it relevant

ACCEPT it for discussion and incorporation if they have a good understanding of MA and the student has raised a valid point.

If a Yellow belt were to read something on a forum and suggest it at class they would probably be told to shutup (not saying this is right, only that it would happen)

I guess my point is that these forums allow us to share ideas and try knew things if we are in a position to introduce them to our own Dojo, but they would be seen as being 'outside' of the GKR curriculum and all too often would not make it to Senior Class and GKR management.

Hope this makes some sense.

I don't doubt that you're right, but I think its a terrible shame. I've been accused of arrogance, but I'd never be so arrogant as to assume that I have nothing to learn, nor indeed that I couldn't learn something from one of my own students.

If a student has an idea, of their own making or from somewhere else, I'm always happy to hear it. I might:
-explain why we don't do that
-explain why we don't need to do it because we've already learnt those particular lessons in another way
-explain why it will come later in their training but there are other concepts they need to internalise first
-explain why it was a daft idea but commend them for using their brain
-take the idea on board and investigate it there and then, or ponder it for future experimentation

One thing’s for certain, if it seems like it be a useful idea, I’m more than happy to explore it further with my students.

Mike

Yes, he did, sadly these points and discussions theron become buried in fora...resulting in circular debate...I think there is a solution.



I think it is possible to quantify, but the methods I have in mind I do not think justify the answer.

Individuals undoubtedly read these fora, visitors are going to do so with questions in mind - we should make it as easy as possible to answer these questions for them.

Atb

David

You sound like a man with a plan David?

Mike

That I am Mike, see the new thread

Atb

David

Do you not think that also fora such as this provide the opportunity for the curious or seeking to ask questions in relative anonymity either because they don't want to be seen to ask "dumb" questions in class or because they have asked questions before and been shut down by their instructor?


Mick

Definetely!

Although the inverse could apply here too.
Take for example the kata and bunkai sub section of the fora. Looking at this one, there are only 2 pages of topics, where other subsections may have 12 + pages of threads.
Even with all the anonymity a forum provides, there is still the embarrassment factor in asking questions that could be percieved as "stupid", when you have a large selection of expertise.

That's a shame. One thing GKR students should understand is that their organisation is by far from being alone in having little understanding of bunkai. The vast majority of tradtional karate organisations either don't teach bunkai or where they do teach it, it is laughable and about as far removed from practical self-defence as you could get it.

There is no shame in not knowing the answers. The only shame (in this regard) is in never daring to ask the questions.

Mike

I was going to say something about not everyone is interested in learning bunkai/oyo, but then I realised that this is not a justification for neglecting the teaching of it.


Mick

Can we get that framed? Is the first time anybody has actually bothered to say that.

Thinking on that - it does make it hard to post in some threads when, because we train in GKR, we are put down/criticised/mocked for not knowing anything.
It too often gets reduced to a "your style sucks and mine is best" discussion which doesn't benefit anybody.

Yes



Absolutely Mike.





Which is why Mike's comment is so applicable.

Atb

David

A large proportion of my students, yellow belts to black belts, regularly visit forums such as these.

I think its fantastic. We often discuss ideas from the WWW during class.