Hi Boz,

Given what you have said above; are there any kata practiced today which are modern?

A kata which takes into account society of today and threats therein?

Atb

David

Hi David,
Most kata practised today are of the 'revised' type. Shotokan kata are Okinawan Kata shotokanized. Goju Kata come from various sources and are Gojuized. The most modern kata that I know of are the Taikyoku and Gekisai series and they were created in the era when kata was being distributed throughout the world.

In American Karotty a lot create their own kata but those that do are looking to create something to impress judges and spectators. The International Traditional Karate Federation Inc. under Hidetaka Nishiyama created a kata as a compulsory kata for competition purposes that contained elements of the stylistic interpretation of techniques from the big 4- Wado, Soto, Goju and Shito.

As far as kata being created for the requirements of modern day self defense, I don't know of any.. there well could be some around. Close quarter self defense hasn't changed as fists feet, knives, clubs and blunt and sharp objects have always been used to attack fellow human beings. Gang attacks may be more prevalent but kata don't address that issue as such.

The human body has not evolved to any great degree since the 19th century so the likely attacks are more dependant on location than anything else. The karate techniques that I have seen introduced are more for modern karate combat, ie karateka vs karateka in rule-bound competition.

The self defense specialists tend to avoid kata and focus on paired training which is very sensible. Unfortunately most don't realise that kata is all about paired training and so we are stuck with the line dancing so prevalent in dojo today.

Cheers,
Boz

This is something that annoys me about sites like bullshido.com, which spout off about being about keeping martial arts honest and busting those in it only for the money. Their main criteria has now it appears become "Could my style kcik your styles arse", and if its traditional its rubbish.

Oh, and Boz... "Karotty"

Hi Matt,
A lot of what I have seen as competition kumite has been rubbish :-( A lot of what some would call 'traditional' training is also rubbish. But it isn't all rubbish as it depends on the teacher and the content. As soon as someone says the mine is bigger than yours thingee, to me, they have just lost the argument. However if one presents a reasonable argument then it can be discussed.

I get annoyed when I hear the verbage about some BB's can't teach which is used to imply that kyu grades can be better teachers. Some kyu grades may have a better approach to teaching but lack the content and experience to do so. However humans seize on some truism and then expand it to fit all cases. Back to the subject at hand. Kumite, like kata, is a teaching tool, and the effectiveness of either depends on the individual concerned and not the 'tradition' itself IMO.
Cheers,Boz
BTW I don't visit that site, went once..

Oh I dont know Boz, I dont think youd find more experts on everything in the one place

Back on topic , and Davids post in particular...
Is it a traditionalist reason that there havent been new kata? Who would be the one to dare put their kata forward?
How does the old "if we dont change we stagnate" mantra fit in here?

I've been waiting for years for this type of question to be asked! :-) Firstly, to go back to David's post, there is also the Ashihara (?) karate who are a 2nd cousin to the Kyokushin and a 1st cousin to Seido karate. The founder of that style created modern karate kumite type kata which became their kata syllabus.

I look at the modern styles and Shotokan under Nakayama introduced another 11 kata that he borrowed from Shitoryu. Kanazawa has introduced a number of kata from Goju and recreated Nipaipo, hyakuhachiho (sp) and Gankaku Sho from other versions. Why didn't they make up their own?

Mabuni adopted every kata he could lay his hands on and Shitoryu have around 60 kata in their syllabus. Mabuni actually did create a couple of kata but as to their signifigance I cannot answer. Wado have been adding kata from elsewhere into their syllabus and Miyagi added and created or recreated another 8 or so kata when he founded Goju. I'm not certain about where some of the Goju kata came from so I could be wrong.

However, the modern day masters don't seem to create their own kata. Of course there have been a few that have done the old trick of putting some combinations together based on another form with no real idea ofwhat they are doing. The American Karotty (for Matt ) competitors have been doing the same thing for years but nobody has come up with a form with function that I know about anyway. I only know for certain of one school where the meaning of the kata has been transmitted down the line. There would be others but I don't believe they are mainstream styles.

I think it is a disgrace really as it shows how little the heads of many associations know about the art. Once one gets past the application phase then they need to be looking at the underlying structure of kata to understand how they are constructed. This is something I have been looking into for many years and the answer is tantalising close at hand for me. All of the modifications and the lack of 'original' kata make this a difficult task.

Here's a good analogy, I have read how there are thousands of country songs written yet there are really only about seven types. I don't know enough about country songs to bother investigating that facet but I have often written about the redundancy of kata. Many kata are rewrites of other kata. Some like Seisan and Hangetsu are the same kata interpreted differently. Where there are Dai and Sho, we are seeing two versions of the same thing with the Sho version usually being the older kata that perhaps Itosu was trying to preserve for future generations.

In studying just a couple of kata indepth in the last couple of years I've been able to glimpse at the underlying structure but I have yet to confirm it for myself. The problem being that other kata don't necessarily follow the same blueprint. Is that because these kata were revised/recreated from another source without knowing the original purpose, shrug? The work for me remains in progress.

Cheers,
Boz

Hi Boz,

I get your points My knowledge of individual kata is not that extensive as yet, so I guess there would be many more examples along the lines of the following. I am thinking of techniques in kata which were founded in the past and accounted for the fashion of the day. The only example which leaps to mind is a move in Saifa were essentially you grab the opponents head pull down and then hit them. I have been told this is symbolic of grabing the top not of their headress for purchase..

..if we were to apply a similar technique today we could get a shock! Lets take a ruffian sporting a crue-cut (sp) hairstyle; they would have nothing to grab! I guess you could just grab their head instead. OK, so how about the majority of fashion victim club goers in Cardiff - they all seem obsessed with wearing various hair gels... you try and grab a handfull of this and your hand is going to slide right off!!

So I have a feeling there are likley to be some techniques in kata that belong more in a museum than in todays dojo.....?

But then you are right, people are still people and fighting is still fighting, so have we got country music karate? Has everything that can be developed allready been done, are there no new advacnes to be made in karate?

Atb

David

You may be looking at things a little to literally David. Take that saifa move as an example: the basic principle is that you are pulling your attacker's head downwards and onto a strike. Why pull down? Why not just hit him? Because you want him off balance to give your attack a better chance. So, he hasn't got a top knot, or long hair, and he's sweaty or gelled up - hook the hand round his neck. Everyone has a neck! Or behind the shoulder. Or grab an arm and pull. The important thing is you pull them forward and down to break their balance, not where you grab them.

I don't believe kata is there to be slavishly copies into applications. It has principles that teach us how to cope with certain situations, but the responses must be flexible and interchangable in their application, else when you want to belt a sweaty, bald, tall guy you'll stand there wondering "but I can't grab his hair....so that won't work".

I'd love to discuss this further (especially with Boz and Mick - no offence everyone else!). I'll type a more reasoned reply when I'm not at work!

Mark, I know you are right I need to escape my shackles

I really think practising karate would be so much more beneficial if things such as pursuit of belts and grade were abandoned. Then there wouldn't be the rigid performance of kata for grading which causes my simple brain so much bother!

Atb

David

David, you can still strive to "perfect" your kata performance and investigate and enjoy what the kata holds for you without the two being mutually exclusive.

I know I keep saying this, but look at the principles, not just the techniques - that's where the kata starts to teach. For example, teach someone that a gedan barai in zenkutsu datchi is just a low blockand that's all it will ever be; look at the principle of the movement and the stance and it becomes a leg throw, an arm bar, a strike to any body area, an escape from a grab and a hundred other things I haven't got time to type!

Many people make the mistake of trying to match exact techniques and responses to exact sequences of kata. Think of kata as a carpenter's toolbox: if the toolbox said you must use the saw first (but never sideways), then the plane (but not on corners - that's sandpaper's job), then the hammer (but don't use the hammer on a chisel - get your mallet) etc etc, then the carpenter would never get anything done! When faced with a piece of wood that needs nails hammering out first, does he say "oh, can't do this because I must use the saw first and it's got nails in, so I can't saw it!" or does he bang the nails out and then get the saw out?

OK, long wiwnded analogy but kata is the sme - the sequences are there to make a kata; use the bits as and when and in whichever order and manner fits the job at hand best - that's when kata works best.

Hi David,
(1) Evaluate the source before you believe anything. Use common sense, karate is not rocket science. It was created by the Uncles of the neighbourhood on a small island in the middle of Asia by ordinary people.
(2) See (1) hint, you use common sense.
(3) You don't know anything about kata yet so stick with the basics
(4) There can be little advancement until the art is understood. We have to look at the past to understand the present and then develop the future. Sports karate has devised some new techniques and training methods but I wrote so much about the kata I think you need to read it a few more times. Not trying to be smart but you are chasing your tail here.

Cheers,
Bob

Did I never ask this question? Oh well...


We know Mabuni was a collector, some people collect stamps - he collected kata.

It's a common trend in most clubs to add kata. Particularly where you find clubs which use kata only as a performance thing and focus minutely on form and perfecting same and don't know or don't care about anything else. Trouble is, students find themselves having to spend all their time just practicing the forms to become any good by the yardstick of the club.

Would I recognise the name of this school?


I think it is fairly common knowledge, at least among those who are (now) looking beyond what they were taught for many years, that those same association heads were never taught much beyond the form with the emphasis on physical training through the Japanese school & university clubs. There are a number of people I know who have either been to Japan or expressed a desire to go to Japan to "get closer to the source" when they could learn more by looking in their own backyard.

Well with you leading the way it makes it easier for the rest of us

To build on your analogy, you can play a heck of a lot of country songs using only 3 chords. And a heck of a lot of those are in key of G. This is what I think anyhow.

It would be nice if they had used video cameras back then, eh?


Mick

Hi David,

If you do a search for Saifa you ought to find a reasonable number of posts on it. Including some far more sensible applications for that sequence without deviating from the form. Let me know if you get stuck for ideas and I can give you something to try.


Mick

It is often possible to draw quite a selection of exercises from kata so that you practice the form as well as using it for something which also serves to help you adjust and self-correct... Avoiding being hit is a great incentive


Mick

Boz, you don't have any argument from me there , won't disuade me from questioning though

Atb

David

Avoiding being hit is a great incentive to train, I can't argue with that either. How do you self correct kata with this incentive in mind when kata is performed solo? Does it just instill an automatic next step??

Atb

David

Hi David,
I wasn't trying to shut you up nor dissuade you from asking questions but you have to take time to digest some of the answers or you are asking questions to what has been answered.
Cheers,
Boz

Yes, Mitani's lineage/school. Mario McKenna's school also has had the purpose and meaning passed down. Did you know there are super 8 films of Miyagi in a Karate Museum in Okinawa? Mario has some super 8 footage of the founder of To'on Ryu as well. Getting hold of it is the problem, just visiting the museum doesn't guarantee a look at the films either as they are under lock and key. Earlier than that is impossible

Boz

Fair point

Atb

David

Ah, for that you need to train with a partner. And a critical eye.


Mick

Kata are intended to be practised with a partner.. they are great homework for solo practise.

Kata are intended to be practised with a partner.. they are great homework for solo practise.

Kata are intended to be practised with a partner.. they are great homework for solo practise.

Kata are intended to be practised with a partner.. they are great homework for solo practise.

Kata are intended to be practised with a partner.. they are great homework for solo practise.

Kata are intended to be practised with a partner.. they are great homework for solo practise.

Boz

Surely someone may have arranged to have the films transferred to tape/dvd for preservation of the content? I suppose if they did it would be available at a premium though

And they were probably not being filmed for preservation of original karate like that which we've discussed in the past about some things only being taught to those who are interested and who have shown they can understand what is being taught.


Mick

Hi Boz

What is your point?


Anon

Boz - your point being....?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I think for those coming from a GKR only background, it is harder to see kata needing to be practiced with a partner, since it is taught from day one that kata is about performance, not about usefulness. And even practicing solo has room for self correction if you are not thinking about perfecting the technique, but imagining using it instead.

Hi Nooms,

Why not? The rest of the world has been doing/discussing/authoring bookk/producing videos about kata applications ( ) since 1992? Why isn't GKR teaching these things?

Boz

OK, I got that one

Atb

David

I don't know.
Heh. Been sitting here now for nearly 10 minutes trying to answer that, and I still don't know.

Yeah... but 'why?' is what had me stumped...
Maybe it's just that it doesn't make any extra money, and would take longer to get instructors into new dojos.

So... what about this application business anyway? Maybe...

Ok... what if... what are some defences you might use for someone grabbing at your jacket/shirt and cocking a fist to thump you? In that moment where it's just been freeze-framed you have to be responding else in half a second you'll be smacked in the gob. What can you do?


Mick

To be honest, I'd try and hit them first. By grabbing me and going to hit me, they've definitely made the first move.

Well... I tried (in my head) to put myself there and froze... not good.
I would think steping back and turning off at an angle would be a good start?

Grabbing the hand that holds my good shirt (!!) with the hand that is now furthest from *him* ...

And driving the heel of my other palm into the back of *his* elbow joint.

In theory I guess I would be looking to twist the hand that holds me and lock the elbow joint so *he* has to let go and preferrably fall over so I can stamp on *his* head and kick *him* for wrecking my good shirt.

Mitten should be brilliant at this stuff.

Hang on a minute Nooms - Half a second aint alot of time to formulate a plan like that ......... Unless, you're an absolutely brilliant Martial Artist or you've been in the forces or something.
I'd just try and give the person a smack.

But isn't that the whole point of learning MA? So we don't HAVE to formulate attacks like that? They just come naturally? Or something?
I wouldn't hit *him*. That would be attacking first.

Well, hitting people doesn't come naturally to me, but if I was forced into a confrontation I'd try to get out of it in one piece. And if the other person made the first move - well, he'd better be able to finish what he started.

What would be a more natural reaction for you than hitting?

Running away. Getting out of there.

How you going to do that if he's hanging onto you?

Well, obviousely I'd have to hit him - But I'd make sure he knew that was my last option. I know a few breakholds and things like that - But I ceetainly wouldn't have time to think about using them. You can't plan a fight.........

But - I'm puzzled not just arguing - if your natural instinct is to run away, wouldn't it also be more natural to try to break the hold and run? Rather than hitting him?

To be honest - I know alot more about hitting things than I do about breakholds. Plus, what if I got the technique wrong? I might end up injuring myself - and I've got the other chap to be there for that.

Hmmm. Okay. But I know little about hitting or breakholds. I would be as likely to get hitting him wrong as I would any breakhold. My natural instinct would be to get away, and to grab at the hand holding me with the hope of making him let go. I think even the push with the other hand to the elbow would be a fairly instinctive reponse. Maybe.

Good question Mick,
The problem with answering 'what if' questions is they lead on to more 'what ifs' to the respnse you put forward. I'll answer this in a general sense because there are a number of variables that can be thrown into the mix. This is one of the most common ways that physical confrontations begin and a response needs to be trained and practised regularly.

If one is seized by the lapel then the moment to have struck the attacker first, ie preemptive strike, has passed by. The attacker is more likely to be bigger or stronger as monkeys don't grab elephants. This being the case then the grab is a control mechanism to prevent you from getting away and also to pull/push you around so that you are in an unbalanced state.

The real threat is the punch to the head and that needs to be realised immediately. It is necessary to have a technique that can cater for both a swinging/hook and a straight punch to the face. Luckily the basic upward block that has the 45o angled forearm can do the job for us. Then as the defensive arm is the closest useable weapon we have to the target, then one needs to strike or seize the head of the attacker and look to take control of the situation. Your other hand needs to come into play then as well.

Why was the defenders grip not considered here? Because it was too late and in itself was not the main threat. That hand could not be used to strike you and once the tables had been turned, the attacker would normally let go voluntarily as you follow up with a barrage of blows or throw or restrain the attacker.. assuming you have some knowledge of effective karate. Its why I say that kata application is often theory, its being able to apply the basics effectively in practise that is important. Writing and talking about applications in the 'I could do this' sense only is not going to cut it.

In my dojo we have one partner seize the other by the lapel and then blast away with swinging and straight punches to the head while pulling and pushing them around the floor. The defender has to maintain their balance and 'block' the incoming strikes. We build up to this in smaller steps and finsih with instant countering and it is simple but effective training. For the record, the self defense taught to Japanese agents and soldiers on special duties likely to be involved in hand to hand combat consisted of a low front kick, a reverse punch and you guessed it, the much maligned upward block.

Cheers,
Boz

Why would you not move out of the way? As much as is possible at least...


Absolutely. But it does give us something to practice so keep doing it for now.

Without being a smartie.. I suggest you get a training partner to grab you and drag you around the dojo while trying to smack you in the face. I feel confident that after a few smacks in the head you will do what is natural and harness the flnch response often talked about. Its difficult to move out of the way when you are being pulled and pushed around. Of course you will do whatever it takes to avoid being hit but try the drill I suggested.

Sorry Kathie, I should have made it clearer. I didn't mean this discussion as I thought it was great to read what you and others came up with. Too many times I see advice handed out that sounds okay in theory but impractical to downright dangerous in reality.
Cheers,
Boz

I would if given the chance... seems no one wants to play with Nooms I get the kids to practice on each other
I had thought though, that if someone has grabbed you and wound up to hit you, they wouldn't be moving around, but rather standing still at the time, in our half second freeze frame?


Ditto.

If someone grabbed me by the jacket and was coming at me with an attack, shrug out of the jacket kick them and run. If I couldnt break/ get out of their hold strike (probably either a punch or front back fist) to the face. With just an instant to play with you'd probably take the quickest route to making the attacker let go, and pain makes most mean guys let go. If I'm being grabbed by the jacket, they're probably in fairly close so their face is most likely going to the best and most obvious target, plus you can see almost immediately how effective your attack has been. If it hasnt been too successful then attack again.

If they've grabbed me from the front and are using both hands, then a front back fist to the face or short punch to the stomache. Problem I see with short punch is that if you're wearing a jacket that's being pulled up by the lout holding you, then it could restrict your movement to the point where it could be difficult to get up the strength to do enough damage to make them let go. FBF you would be moving your arm up with your jacket, and probably under and inside their arms. Elbow strikes could work but if they've grabbed you with both arms then their arms may get in the way.

If they're using one hand and are just grabbing onto the jacket, twist wrist round to grab onto the hand holding me and make sure it cant be used and most likely a punch probably to the face but maybe to the stomache. I think it's a point of I know I can do more damage to the head if I strike at the head, but striking to someone's stomache I'm not as certain off. They maybe able to take a couple of hits to the abdomen.

Wow, I can think it through and see in my head what I think I'd do but it's so hard to actually get it down in writing. Plus then I start thinking of the different ways in which my jacket/ shirt is grabbed, from which direction, one handed or using both hands... If I'm grabbed from behind then I'm probably not going to go with a stomache punch...

if they grabbed with two hands that allows you to 'control' their hands by placing yours over theirs and kicking them in the groin....

that's gotta work...