oo, hadnt even thought of the kick there! Would it depend on how close they are though? And what if they've grabbed you and pushed you against a wall?

...they still have a groin!

Atb

David

and you have a knee

You might well find that if you've been grabbed then you're also being pushed or pulled around. In which case you're balance will be compromised. So you'd be very lucky to be able to throw any sort of kick at all. At best you're going to be able to use a knee strike, but even that is questionable.

Mike

I still have trouble with seeing someone grab somebody (with one or two hands), and ... propel them while also trying to hit them... does it really happen?

If someone's grabbed you they may try to pull you into their strike?

Now I got it. Thankyou.

As Mitten mentioned they may pull you into their strike, but they may also push you to unbalance you before they strike. This is a natural instinctive strategy innate in humans. They may drag you around (pushing and pulling) to stop you being able to hit them. Humans instinctively understand the value of retaining their own balance and destroying their opponents'. But 'traditional' martial art training tends to train this out of people.

If someone grabs you aggressively it is more than likely that they will try to disrupt your balance in some way, even though they almost certainly won't understand this at a conscious level. If your techniques don't take this into account then they will most likely fail.

Mike

I need to get into fights more often...

Interesting point Mike.
Does training incorporate any ways to counter that balance disrupting attack?

Well I couldn't answer that in respect of GKR, as I don't train in GKR. But I've never heard it being addressed on any GKR forums.

The way I train and teach does address it. To start with though, I teach people how to respond to grabs. Once students have built up a vocabulary in that area (say, intermediate kyu grades) we will start looking at combining the grabs with pushing and pulling. And also combinations of grabs and strikes - and of course grabs, pulls/pushes and strikes.

One thing my students do learn from day one though is the importance of keeping your own balance whilst breaking the attacker's balance. This is something that is never far from our thoughts in training.

Mike

Reason being is that I don't think it is addressed (specicificaly)in GKR. There are techniques in kata and basics to address a grab, but only if you have retained your balance.

For me in such a situation I would aim to use my opponents drag against them. Say they have grabbed you from the front and aim to drag you forwards. I would be off balance momentarily, so I place my weight on them and step beyond them, regaining my balance and off balancing them. From this point I have many options, bring my back leg up in a knee strike, step past them and sweep them etc.

If pushed backwards (which I think is the most probable), I move backwards beyond the shove. They follow by instinct and I assist by now pulling them, again they are now off balance and I have many options to strike or trip them.

Non of this is covered to my knowledge in GKR...maybe after the basic kyu grades for shodan and up - oh, but that would suggest a higher curriculum; I haven't heard any evidence this exists.

I think the big point here is the karate GKR teach is for a purpose; mainstream sport karate where folk play be rules. There is a self defence element (but that is as far as it goes) in such that a punch or a block can be used as self defence. The main emphasis is on competition within GKR against GKR techniques. Which is neither wrong nor right; it is what it is.

Atb

David

My first thought is that I disagree, it is wrong. If you’re going to teach self-defence then you should address the realities of violence. If you address an incomplete or flawed understanding of the realities of violence then you’re not teaching self-defence. What you teach may possess some attributes in common with self-defence teaching but it isn’t the same thing.

You and I both know that SDC’s include ‘self-defence’ as part of their sales pitch. That’s clearly at odds with the realities of GKR training. If they said ‘our training puts in place some of the foundations for self-defence training, but you’d need to go elsewhere to build on those foundations’ that might be OK. But we both know they don’t say that.

Mike

Yes Mike, you are right and it needs to be delt with. Sorry I'm a bit distracted at the moment to give a clearer reply.

Atb

David

C'mon, they get away with saying "self defence" on the basis that they teach a form of karate, and karate is a form of martial art... and when most people don't know the difference between karate and kung fu then nobody's going to force a showdown.


Mick

I think this relates to applications of GKR as a self-defence:

My sensei sparred heavy (not full) contact with me last night so I could psyche up for my red-belt grading tomorrow, and it showed me a lot.

- My balance was terrible until I forced myself to set into zenkutu dachi when punching, and using kokustsu dachi to absorb his powerful attacks.

- He repeatedly grabbed my hand and pulled me in towards his punches, repeated off the reverse (left) arm, and I just couldn't block fast enough. These encounters conituously resulted in punch-fests, usually ending with a throat-punch or me on the floor . Couldn't beat the brawnier opponent here.

- I overused the same attack patterns and eventually he just evaded quite easily and hit me in the flank.

- One jick had me sliding across the floor with the urge to vomit

- After a while I found my only hope was to attack, attack, attack or there was no escape. Punch-punch-kick kept me standing for a while, but a tendency to stand too upright had me reeling backwards.

- With my hands in stationary guard he always found a way though, and once I became dynamic in my hand movements (always blocking, punching etc).

- What was worse was a bystander said afterwards "you should use your long reach to keep him at a distance, amd if he gets too close, you should make it a safe distance again". This would have been running backwards.

- He also tried some round hook-punches which I couldn't stop, period.

These are all just examples/observations. I am quite good at point sparring, my sensei is not-so, yet in the dojo he rules all. Had it not been for this experience I would not have realised my sparring needs an overhaul, and now I will develop it as such.

My point (at last!) is that without this "forbidden" heavy-contact sparring I would not have realised my weaknesses in sparring, technically and mentally. I'm not saying we lack a broad enough range of techniques (it's too broad already), but instead I'm reaffirming the point that GKR sure as buggery ain't taught as a self-defence.

---

On the older discussion about kata, (which I sort-of missed ), I wonder if kata should be constructed according to the kihon, since kihon is "tweaked" almost every time it changes hands, so does kata, but they may do so in parallel (which is bad). Should traditional kata be forgotten unless the entire style is perfectly true to it origin?

Let's all just spend a weekend in our backyards inventing kata to battle those situations we most fera, using those techniques we favor most.

If I went out and did my Bassai-Dai tomorrow at my grading the way I feel suit me best, I would be laughed at. Being on the NAS team only confirms that GKR karate is for show and makes little sense in its "systeme internationale".

please let this dumb post make sense

Easy for the bystander to say. But sometimes its simply impossible to keep distance.



Good practice then. Consider this: a punch in a real encounter will almost certainly be round not straight. People who spend all their time defending against straight punches just don't know how to deal with round punches, as you discovered. Sounds like a valuable lesson learned.

Mike

Gosh. We work stuff with round punches all the time. Too bad bradt lives in the wrong state...


Mick