Normally discussions on application centre around kata - "what is this move for?". And discussion, debate and argument rage about it with the different camps all having their say. Some are only concerned with the form and think time spent on anything else is futile, because why waste time on that when your technique is not perfect? Others are obsessed with finding the definitive application, the true and only real application for the moves in question. And we also have the other two camps in this tetrapolar (four ends - I just made that up ) arrangement, those who think anything that fits is a fair use and those who can find any number of realistic applications but think that specific applications become misleading.

So then if we adopt the position, for the sake of argument, that the function of kata is to provide some form of template for self defence, what are the attacks against which we are practicing defences?

Perhaps we look at common assaults? If so then statistically a punch to the head is high on the list. The only thing higher is a push to the chest. These are both realistic attacks, can be easily imagined and can be practiced in relative safety in order to explore defences.

So, taking one or the other of these and approaching kata application from the other side, what kata sequences do you think would fit as a response to a push to the chest? And which would fit as a response to a punch to the head?


Mick

Hi Mick

How long have you got? Did you have any particular kata in mind?

Mike

Let's see... how about in Bassai Dai?


Mick

OK. I’ll try and think of examples that use the modern versions of Bassai – the Passai I practice has some marked differences by comparison. I’m assuming that the punch to the head is a straight-ish punch (we can look at round-ish punches separately), so I’m not going to differentiate between a shove to the chest or a (straight) punch to the head.

Here’s a few examples of the top of my head.

1. Opening sequence – the ‘augmented outward block’.
Against a right-handed attack, the left open hand bridges inwards across the body redirecting the attack, while the right fist uppercuts to the jaw. I’m not going to worry about trying to get the feet to match the kata for this particular application. The way we do it, the stepping is different anyway, and would usefully augment the arms in this application. From here I might jump forward to another point in the kata – the crescent kick then land in horse stance – by kicking their right leg with my left heel and dropping my stance in order to throw them.

2. The series of outward blocks that comes next is potentially indicative of mawashi-uke blocks – so the left hand blocks inwards and passes the limb to the right. From here one might jump forward to the double punches (although you could equally jump to a myriad of other techniques in the kata at this point): if the right manages to capture the wrist then it pulls down while the left fist punches to the jaw area. Alternatively if you miss the grab simply punch with both fists, the left to the jaw and the right to the floating ribs. As in the above example you could kick or knee and drop the stance in order to throw. Both of these example are done on the outside of the punch.

3. The punch and outward block on the spot sequence.
If in the above example you did the mawashi-uke on the inside, grab the wrist with one hand and punch to the solar plexus with the other. Then bring the punching arm underneath their arm and do the ‘block’ in order to apply an armbar. From here they can easily be thrown or taken down.

4. Step forwards with shuto (after the side-kick and turn).
Bridge inwards with your left hand against a right handed strike, while moving your body to the outside (left). Use the left hand to unbalance the attacker and step in to strike the neck with shuto.

I could go on but a boy's got to do some work during the day.

Mike

It kind of depends how loose we can get with translation...it could be argued that almost any move of an arm could be read as a block for a push to the chest or a head high punch? And just about any move of the hands or feet could be a counter?

The problem that I see is that without understanding how the individual karate techniques can be used, i.e. the why and when, then the interpretation of kata appears to be a real guessing game with different people coming up with different applications. The best way is to learn or develop a system that can be applied across all kata in your system.

Boz

What's wrong with using anything that works? Besides, it can be entertaining to watch people who take the "anything that works" approach trying to remember what they did last time for any given sequence.

"Wait, that was it! This one is against a jumping, flying, spinning back round kick somersault while holding an egg sandwich!"


Mick

Mick are you saying there is only one, or at best a very small number of applications?
Or that if it works and it fits it isnt necessarily a correct application?

You have to ask yourself does it work? Does it fit? Is it realistic or are the chances of someone galloping past on the back of an elephant while swinging a pelican by the legs and trying to hit pedestrians a bit far-fetched?

There is a book about 76 uses for a down block. Why then do people always seem to say "down block. I must be facing a front kick attack."?


Mick

I find it useful to think "what principle is this move teaching me". That way I have a coherent tool for analysing the kata, rather than just a hotch-potch of different applications that seem to work but have no underlying theory tying them together.

So anyone got any ideas for defences against a big round punch in this kata? I'd be interested to hear them even if they're just wild ideas you've just had. Personally I've thrown out the majority of bunkai I've ever been taught or thought of myself - but even if an application ends up in the dustbin the process of exploring them is quite educational I find.

Mike

So... basically you aren't looking for sequences as a response? Just any moves will do? And interpretation of "potential indicativeness" is fair? Then any move of the arms in Bassai that will deflect an incoming strike (which is nearly every move if you take into account it's potential to be something else) followed by a counter using and hand or foot technique in the kata, followed by anything else.... there. Complete bunkai for all of bassai dai.

It fits... it works... either these are sequential applications, or they are pick-a-move-any-move applications... which is it we are supposed to be looking for? Interpret the move the way you see fit?

I agree, exploring applications is educational though you do have to be prepared to bin your newest "coolest" discovery if it proves to be unworkable in some way. The interesting bit is when you find the same set of movements can deal with different attacks.


Mick

Not everyone comes from the same background of "do the kata and get it perfect", "shut up and keep practicing because your kata isn't perfect", and "application isn't part of the syllabus and anyway, why are you even asking when you still need to work on your kata?". There are many clubs who teach application alongside kata and not leave the few who want to know to have to seek answers on their own and unsupported.

What Mike has described is something I would class as being a bit further down the track, coming after the student has a good handle on the stuff found when you do stick to the sequences as they're found in a kata.

Trouble is, if you start with the opening movement (the reinforced block) it can be seen how it is a defence against a strike while at the same time countering, then follow it with a shoulder throw and you're still in the same kata sequence. Then you could follow that drill in a class with something else which has the same start but follow the response with a different action which just happens to match another kata sequence and then it's not so confusing because there is a thread, a theme to what you're doing, that can be followed.

Trying to explain stuff in writing is hard, often the same thing can be demo'd very quickly and easily.


Mick

What springs to mind when I picture a big swing is sticking an arm up in the way. And moving. But sticking an arm up somewhere. Dammit, I keep thinking Pinan Shodan now...

What if... you started at the bit where you do a double rising block?


Mick

You could use a sequence as a response, but I don't believe that you should be limited to that. Each movement in itself expresses one or more principles. Those principles can be combined in many different ways.



Yes, any move from the kata, as long it works in the context in which you're applying it.



I'm not sure I understand the question. Could you clarify it for me?



Either. I don't see the two ideas as being mutually exclusive. If you see a sequence that is repeated several times in a kata then you have to wonder why? Or you may see essentially the same sequence in several different kata. Again, one wonders why that particular sequence warrants repeating. Of course it may be that the sequence was just pinched from one kata and inserted into another. Or maybe the sequence does have some worth in itself.

Off the top of my head I can think of several reasons why you may see a particular sequence in a kata:
1. The techniques are meant to be performed sequentially in reality
2. The second technique may be what you're meant to do if the first one doesn't work properly.
3. The order is abitrary but, hey, you've got to put them together in some order.



I choose interpret the moves as I see fit, yes. My primary purpose in understanding kata is as a self-defence tool. But its not a haphazard affair. To be valid applications for me they have to be practical and workable. They must adhere to at least the majority of combative principles which I hold dear. The final test for me is "does it work"? And I don't mean in the confines of the kind of 'dead' formal sparring you see in many karate dojo, but in more 'live' situations.

Lets look at one example of one of the techniques from Bassai Dai - the crescent kick, which then lands in a horse stance. As I stated in my earlier post this can be used to kick the outside of the opponent's thigh. As you land you take away the opponent's posture by driving your stance through his. This will either throw the person or bring them to their knees. There are many situations in which you can use this technique. The important thing is to ensure you are on their blindside (ie. attacking from the outside) and that you have created sufficient opportunity for you to throw the kick - ie. you must have already done something meaningful with your hands. But in the kata the crescent kick comes in a particular place, immediately after you've done a chudan sweep with the left hand from a straddle or horse stance. Does that mean that you can only use it if you've just done a chudan sweep or if you were stood in a particular stance? No, that would be very limiting. Once you understand and can apply the principle, you can apply in many many different situations. And that's the beauty of the kata. You don't need to learn a thousand different kata to deal with a thousand different assaults. The point of kata is to learn just a handful but to be able to apply the principles they embody in many different situations.

Mike

What principle am I learning here? KISS....
Once we had a thread about "what level are you" karate-wise. OK, I'm in kindy, and you are LOSING ME BIG TIME! I will throw a tantrum if you spoon-feed me, but I still need my vegies chopped for me, k? And I need my vegies if I'm ever going to grow.
Now, let's just back this baby up a little...
Basically, we can pick any moves from bassai, and turn them into a defence against a round punch? I can try that.
I will even take Mick up on his what if...
What if - we start from the double rising block bit? If we can modify it so that the risingness of it doesn't necessarily rise up, but can go outwards... what does someone do with their other hand when they are throwing a round punch at your head? I can't remember.
Add in the long-forward-stance-with-stomach-level-punch bit here, and adapt the double-punch-turn into a throw and put him on the floor....

You know, this really is very hard putting it into text. Maybe we need a numbered list of moves to start from. I know what I'm talking about, and it seems like it could work (depending on what he is doing with that other hand) but I don't know that my ... theory makes sense to anyone else.

Kata is made up of individual karate techniques. Itosu has told us that in modern karate, the kata represent both grappling and striking. The individual techniques all have meaning but within a particular kata, some moves are positional coincidences, i.e. linking moves to create a pattern, other moves, especially those that are repeated are for training purposes, and some moves are for show.

One needs to understand how kata are sequenced because the sequences show examples of how karate can be used in response to an attack. Karate cannot be learned satisfactorily ad hoc, everyone is learning a bit from here and there trying to fit the pieces of the puzzle together but unfortunately they do not know what to believe nor what pieces they are missing. The place to start is by researching the very basic individual techniques.

Kata application is a misnomer, it is really karate application yet the fascination surrounds the mysterious kata.. what did Bruce Lee say about the Moon and the finger? :-) There are no real shortcuts and the things that need to be learned aren't passed on in books, videos or seminars. You can get some tips and plenty of people try to point others in the right direction but most don't understand what they have to do to learn and continue wandering around in the dark.
Boz

I think you've really hit it on the head there - for me at least. I do feel like im 'wandering around in the dark', but I guess thats partly because of trying to run the marathon before I can even sit up correctly, and had been picking up things piecemeal. Having an instructor with the knowledge to guide you is a real help - anyone know where I can find one?

Matt,
You already have too many instructors, there's no hope for you
Boz

Understood. Lets throttle down a bit.



I've found a website with some pics so we can sure we're on about the same bit.

http://www.bulgaria.com/BG/bftk/bassai.htm

I presume we're on about pics 22 to 24.



That's certainly getting my vote.



I think its fair to say that, if you haven't done something to prevent it the other hand will shortly be following on with another punch.

Lets look at the movement in a little more detail. OK, so one hand blocks the punch but why are you raising both arms? You could say, perhaps, that the kata is telling you that the attack is on either side but I think it means more than that. One principle here is simply 'raise both arms to protect your head'. This is in essence a 'flinch response' - something you will do instinctively if you suddenly see an object rapidly approaching your head. Its a fast hard-wired response so you might as well make use of it. Now you're flinch response is already happening you can try and form it into a meaningful technique. Instead of just covering your head extend one arm out to intercept the incoming limb somewhere around the elbow. Continue the movement through as in step 23 of the kata - you grab or hook round the arm and pull round and down to unbalance the attacker. Now he's been pullled down slightly he's unbalanced and his follow-up punch will lack power. Its also opened up the left side of his neck as a target. Use your right arm to strike down onto the base of the neck, again as in step 23. Avoid the spine and windpipe, and never hit your partner in the neck in practice. This should put him out of action.



I'm not sure what you mean by double-punch-turn but following on from the next pic of the kata, let's assume that your strike to the neck wasn't wholly successful. So the next step (pic 24 - sliding forward with a right punch). If his right leg is forward you could move forward, circling your right foot around to his outside to place the foot behind his right foot. Assuming you've kept your arms where they were (the left grabbing is right elbow and the right on the left side of his neck) then completing the 'punching' motion will throw him back over your right leg.

If this wasn't wholly successful you can swing your body and right arm around to your left, changing the direction of the throw, dumping him at your feet. This is essentially move 24a.

Does that all make sense?



Tell me about it!

As an aside, in my search for some pics of the kata I came across this video clip of bunkai for the kata. This, to me, exemplifies everything that is wrong about most traditional bunkai. See how the attacker is required to attack from a distance with stylised karate movements in a set sequence. Once he's finished his sequence he stops and lets the defender 'win'. There's no hint of the defender unbalancing him or moving to a position of advantage, so there's really no reason for the attacker to have stopped his attack. Utter tosh!

http://www.usankf.org/f56/f6/f6a/f6a_4_TRA...assaiD_anal.htm

Mike

Now THAT makes sense!!! Pics 22 to 24 is good.


Re the vid -
It is an impressive display... but... yeah.

The Shotokan version of Bassai Dai doesn't make much sense at all though. Why would we step forward and perform an assisted inside block at chest height and cross our legs at the ankles.. and then turn our back on an attacker? Then what principle is involved in performing two blocks in the different directions? In fact there is like 9 blocks at the beginning of the kata before we throw a punch? What the heck is that kata teaching anyone?

Boz

From my interpretation, and IMHO, this sequence is pics 37 & 38. The principle of changing stance and/or direction with the rear leg allows an interpretation of a throw. As in pics 3 & 4 also. Or in our Taigyoko Shodan and Nidan.

Thankyou.

Hi Boz

I think you can derive practical themes from the modern Bassai Dai, but I must admit I think its more useful to look at one of the many older versions. I've never seen the point of working the bastardised modern versions (that we know weren't modified to make them more effective) if you can get your hands on older and more self-defence oriented versions.

Mike

Those movements are commonly accepted as being Tai Otoshi (major body drop).



Careful, it seems it is a common trap for people to start seeing throws everywhere. Maybe because they seem "cooler"?

Portions of the start are different to varying degrees in other versions of Bassai. In this form, if you were to split the sequences between 2 & 3 so that 3 is the start of the next sequence it presents other options which are relatively easy to execute.

IMO while the changes in direction using the rear leg in Taikyoku Shodan might be seen as a throw, to me it just feels wrong. The balance and posture just don't seem right. In any case there are a number of other fundamental principles to be found in that kata. We also have to consider that with such an elemental kata, the inclusion of throws might not have been the intent.

As for the GKR Taikyoku Nidan, it is an abomination and should not be spoken of.


Mick

Hi Mike,
Yes I agree, one can extract something useful from modern kata but why would you want to? Nearly any older version has the diamonds on the outside, in plain view. I teach a few modern kata as competition kata only but gee they are a real waste of time and effort as far as reverse-engineering goes. Half the time people create applications for a move that was altered drastically for PE purposes. As well karate basics today follow the 'new' kata moves.

Have a look at all the chudan blocks that exist in modern karate, many are disguised strikes, open the hands, change the target areas and voila. I must post a few things Choki Morobu said about modern karate. Its not my intention to deride modern karate students because we have all been sold the same product but it really is time that people stopped and thought about their training seriously. Common sense has gone out the window because the majority of students have never faced a physical confrontation.

Everyone has serious questions but they want to hear some reassurance rather than the unpalatable truth. Modern karate was created as PE and sport. That's not such a bad thing unless one believes they are doing the earlier art of self defense.. Coming up with applications to a modified version is not the way to go if one is trying to understand karate as it once was IMO. A lot say that modern kumite is impractical and there is some truth in that but another view is that practising applications from kata will make you more likely to be able t defend yourself. Well the fact is self-defense involves both long and close range encounters and both need to be trained as realistically as possible.

Cheers,
Boz

Please do!


Common sense never is. People swallow things they're told and don't think about it. Senior grades all over the place teach training drills involving an attack stepping in with a head-level straight punch with a defence of stepping back into a deep stance with a rising block, and call it self defence. There are also plenty of instances of people charging what the market will bear for seminars and then just teaching the same things you can find in regular classes.

IMO going from basics to kata to kumite is not going to teach a great deal. Without the practice of partnered drills with self-defence scenarios, partnered drills using basics through to partnered drills for kumite and connecting them with the relevant theory and teaching of the principles involved then you have greatly restricted the benefits to be gained from these activities.

Instead of breeding a culture of critical analysis - how well do certain things work for you, do they make sense etc - there arises tales of "we did this combination which was soo great it was really long and I can't remember it now but we kept mucking it up and then we'd get the giggles but we had a great time"...


Mick

I can agree with what you just said Mick...

I attended a class recently which was full of combinations...

i remember thinking throughout the entire class, "why are we doing this?"

there was no practical reason for it, there wasnt even a co-ordination reason for it, it just seemed to be "we have to do all the stances, strikes, blocks and kicks so let's put them all together and we'll call it a class"...

this comment caught me....

maybe because it's about the only comment i understood LOL


but, sequences of moves that are repeated throughout different kata...

a while back i was teaching my classes with Matt still...

he had been teaching the class a joint lock/throw move that we had 'discovered' was an application directly from Safia (GKR saifa anyway)

it wasn't until i was doing kata seiunchin a couple of months later that i realised the same sequence was present in that kata though it was slightly different due to the footwork...

the 2nd, 4th and 6th moves of saifa the "rolling wave" moves matched the second last move to seiunchin.

those that know the GKR versions of this kata can check this for me and let me know if it's correct....


but i just wanted to make sure im understanding you correctly boz.....

Hi Susan,
I am becoming a little concerned about my posts. What do you mean it was the only comment you understood? I'm not writing in complex English I don't think. Is it just that you don't know the karateka or things I am referring to? Or is it something else, please help me!

Boz

We see this in that kihon practice is usually a reflection of the techniques appearing in kata.

I'm guessing it would have been the case that if any techniques were practiced in isolation they would have been predominantly those which appeared in the kata the student was studying. Today we see a plethora of techniques practiced by themselves even when they're done differently or not done at all in the kata students are learning.

In some systems there are many more basic techniques practiced than appear in kata, and in others there are techniques which appear in kata but are never taught in isolation - the first time the student encounters the technique is in kata, and the only time they practice it is in the performance of that kata.


If we ignore most of that then it is much easier to practice kata as combinations of blocking and striking, and ideally suited to teaching en masse.


Linking moves make sense, you can't always go straight from practicing one "routine" to the next without stopping to readjust. An intermediate move to change alignment or get ready for the next bit would allow sets to be strung together. It also might involve a change in direction for limited practice space. I guess it would also make some sort of sense to repeat sequences particularly if there are multiple uses for the same generic set of movements.


Getting there... slowly...


That's very deep


This is very true. Sometimes there are nuggets of information to be found here and there, but you can't pass on everything all at once even during hands-on tuition. It has to be built up a piece at a time, and the best way to learn is to be given the pieces in the right order and assisted to put them together. Without cutting bits off just to make them fit anywhere.


I keep coming back and reading stuff and sometimes I understand or realise something I hadn't before.


Mick

sorry boz...
it's not that i don't understand what you're posting, more that i need time to absorb and reflect on your comments...
that particular comment however i seemed to grasp immediately...

Ooooooh. I think I just realised something. Well not "just" since it wasn't an all-of-a-sudden type of thing but more of an all-of-a-gradual. One of those thoughts that sort of creep up and scare the bejeebers out of you when you're busy thinking of other stuff. Should I share? I don't know...


Mick

Yes you should, specially since you've already started , and no story is allowed to be left unfinished.

Share and enjoy....

Or we send someone round to see you...

Well...

It was the phrase "it is really karate application" that caught me. Why do we do things "in karate" different to how we do them "in kata", if in fact we do?

It seems that, on reflection, much of the application I pull from kata is more free and less rigid than the way the kata is performed. This may seem obvious to some, and wrong to others. The straight line of the kata is not always adhered to, but if you apply basic common sense then clearly it is a good idea to get off the tracks if a train is coming through. Opposing force with force is great if you're stronger than most, but you're in trouble if the other person is stronger than you.

So maybe the first step is evasion - don't get hit. This may mean you still follow the movement of a given sequence, just not in the exact direction the kata might have you doing. At first glance.

If you have a kata sequence wherein you step forward with a block and a strike, but you find that stepping forward on a slight angle offers better defence and opens up a number of possibilities should you stick strictly to the straight line? Or is the angle ok because it's pretty close?

Is it still karate? If you have an application using the karate techniques you've learnt it'd be a karate application, right? If you practice it without learning the kata which has the matching moves then it'd seem to be a karate application rather than a kata application.

You could teach an entire system of self defence without kata and it could be just as effective as one where you had to learn kata. The difference can lie in whether kata is used solely as a test of performance for grading or as a vehicle for practicing those defensive responses when a partner is not available. The defensive responses could equally be practiced without making them into kata, but as kata you have a concrete "thing" to practice instead of a variety of otherwise unconnected moves.

[/ramble]


Mick

So if you can have a system that does all of this surely that would be better than a sum of the parts? Simpler to teach would also be an advantage, not to mention making it easier to actually remember the application (I know I used to know a heap of defensive techniques...what were they again?? )

What goes thru the mind when you are practicing kata? Are you enacting the defence application you practiced with your partner in the dojo? Are you focusing on whether your basic techniques would be effective? How about being determined to work off that Big Mac you shouldnt have had on the way home from work? Are you in 'the zone'?

Counter point - what SHOULD be going through your mind when practicing kata? Should you be looking for the defence applications, rather than having them taught? Are you focusing on whether what you have been taught is a basic technique is or could be something else entirely?

Great. Now you make me think of questions and I couldn't even find answers for the ones already posted...

Well for one thing you maybe should be concentrating on the form, the performance aspect of the kata. Though this is the lowest of all levels in kata.

At the same time maybe you need to be conscious of your breathing and balance, be conscious of the "flow" or sequencing of the kata, be thinking of the applications you have been taught for the kata, be thinking of other possible applications and be thinking of whether your techniques would be effective.

Easy enough?


Mick

In't kata representative of karate? I believe that the 'tail is now wagging the dog'. Kata is a tool of karate and not the other way around.

You extract karate techniques from kata and then apply the karate techique, no?

Remember the self defense maxims from that Chinese Proverb?

Kata is a template.. you are expected to understand the common self defense principles before learning all the exercises. Isn't that the problem today? Everyone learning the exercises but don't understand the maths!

Light bulb moment?

My old jujutsu instructor did it that way. No kata just self-defense techniques.

Kata also provides teachers with a way to improve the delivery system. Technique is kept tight from repetition of form.

Bob

Heh. A walk in the park. Until I get to the "thinking of other possible applications" ...

Hi Matt,
Lets substitute 'exercises' for the word 'kata'. Many self-defense systems have formalized their exercises but they don't have them all threaded together into a solo flow drill that can be memorized and practised at home without a partner. Remember the set drills and then the 'heap of defensive techniques' aren't so hard to recall, in my experience.

I practise kata to memorize the form and improve my technique. I pull out the partner drills and practise those with a- you guessed it- partner. I believe that older kata were practised slowly and as if re-enacting a self defense or combat scenario.. I can't say that is true for sure as it is just something I've been told. Performance art is different and in any sport or art one can get into the 'zone' I guess. I have experienced this in kumite.

cheers,
bob

Quite so! Who has seen instances where technique done in kata is different to technique done in kihon practice?


The comment made earlier about people learning things piecemeal rather than in some structured fashion and then trying to put it all together almost ties in here. Though some are better able to do this than others... I think a part comes from being aware of natural responses, but that these are not necessarily the be-all. There also needs to be some knowledge of common assaults to be able to extrapolate applications from kata sequence but even some knowledge of the basic psychology of violence goes a long way, not to mention a little common sense. Simple things like the head being a prime target - people saying "gonna smash his face" happens far more frequently than "gonna punch him in the stomach, real hard".


Took me a moment to recall the proverb in question, but yes, the basic gist of hold rather than hurt and hurt rather than maim etc is important IMO. It forms the core of self defence because it is essential to consider levels of response for any situation, and to have options.


Yes.. without the basic techniques in practice with a partner it can be hard to see what the kata can show. As you say (often) kata by itself does not teach anything but is a useful tool in the hands of a teacher who knows how to use it.

Not in and of itself, just an observation that if a particular self-defence technique is taught in isolation it can be seen as a karate application. If kata with the technique was to be taught first (or indeed after) it would be seen as a kata application.


Mine too, he referred to it as a matrix wherein any given attack has a number of possible responses, each response has a number of possible follow-ups and each follow-up has a number of possible finishes. The overlap through different paths from different attacks reveals the matrix exists and that there are not hundreds or thousands of techniques but rather a relatively small number with variations and they can be assembled in many different combinations.


Which is where form is important. But it isn't everything. But it is important.


Mick

What kata and the principles gives us... Here's an example to which you ought to be able to relate: You recall that I spent a little time studying Saifa? (A couple of years or so.) I rarely practice any of the applications in Saifa by themselves, usually only when I'm teaching one or some of them when the occasion arises. But practice of the kata keeps it moderately fresh in mind, and when the situation demands it is easy enough to extrapolate a number of applications without needing to rehearse. It also allows variation to be made on the fly when someone "attacks wrong".


Mick

Sadly you are right .. no lightbulb moment
Boz

Still a good moment though. I think we need the moments where we go "Hey, I knew that! I just didn't realise I knew that.." as much as the "Gosh! Now it makes sense! How cool is that?!" moments.


Mick

Dad and i get lost in this thread sometimes, but its a very good topic, please keep it going.
thank you
Sam

Yeah! One of those moments...!
I actually thought I had been lost by this thread. I guess I was for a while. Too many things jumping out at me begging for attention. So I went back and picked out all the comments that really stood out for me, and came up with this (excuse the jumble of quotes - made reading it easier). I knew all this stuff... just hadn't put it together before.

"Karate cannot be learned satisfactorily ad hoc ... The place to start is by researching
the very basic individual techniques ... teach an entire system of self defence without
kata ... as kata you have a concrete "thing" to practice instead of a variety of otherwise unconnected moves ... kata is a template ... [kata is] a way to improve the delivery system. Technique is kept tight from repetition of form ... without the basic techniques in practice with a partner it can be hard to see what the kata can show ... practice of the kata keeps it moderately fresh in mind ... I practise kata to memorize the form and improve my technique".

Karate is a system of self defence. The combinations of moves used for reacting to various attacks are 'glued' together and called a form, kata, an exercise. These (for arguments' sake I am calling them) kata, are practiced in order to develop muscle memory, and because it is easier than trying to remember unconnected combinations (among other things). The kata when broken down, represent the basic techniques our minds and bodies need to memorise in order to react ... properly, for want of a better word, when needed. The monotonous practice of these basics is then reflected in the skill level which we exhibit during kumite - the practice of a two person kata...

It's the voices... I blame the voices...

A question came up on another list about whether there was a definitive book on kata applications. Below is an edited version of my reply-

Many of the applications you see in books and videos, and on forums such as this, are pretty complex or require a degree of skill in a grappling art such as Jujutsu or Aikido.

Now in reality, the first question that needs to be asked is what sort of likely attacks do I face in my part of the world. In Australia its the king hit (sucker punch) which means one has to be vigilant in certain situations. Knives are becoming a little more common but guns, thankfully, are not common though there seems to be an increase in their use in family domestic violence.

The second question to ask is when you are learning an application from some source or devising one yourself is not 'could' I use/do this but WOULD I do/use this? Most application books and articles I've read certainly have not passed that test for me.

Kumite, while not being anything like a real fight, at least gives one the opportunity of training to get in the first blow and prevent the other guy from striking you. The mind set is a little different of course but the adrenalin rush is still there to manage.

Those that dismiss non-contact kumite as 'love tapping' have obviously only seen poor examples. When carried out effectively, small mistakes can lead to injury for one of the contestants. I'd hate to depend on the theoretical effect of some of these applications that are hallucinated up by some with no experience of physical confrontations.

Learning how to escape most likely grips and holds if seized unexpectantly and having the option to apply a restrainst, albeit simple joint-locks, and how to throw someone down on the ground are icing on the cake.

Most of the modern training methods can be modified to make them more practical as perfecting techniques and memorizing and polishing one's performance of kata without purpose can be a source of regret when the skills of self defense are needed one day.

Cheers,
Bob